Part 3 in ISO Online Browsing Platform

Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamilton at acm.org
Fri Sep 6 17:09:41 CEST 2013 

That's very disappointing.  I will not knowingly contribute to a standard with such limitations on the availability of its specifications.

I think that means, for me, participation with PAS submitters, IETF, and ECMA (with its unique standing at ISO) where there is always a freely-available public version.  Although that has appealed to me for other reasons in my case, I see that there is a policy matter as well.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Francis Cave [mailto:francis at franciscave.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2013 08:34
To: SC 34/WG 4 mailing list
Subject: RE: Part 3 in ISO Online Browsing Platform

Caroline and Dennis

I just checked with staff at the UK national standards body, BSI. This issue
has been raised in the past, but there's a view in the higher echelons of
BSI and ISO that all ISO standards should be behind the pay-wall and JTC 1 /
ITTF are out of line in allowing some of their standards to be downloaded
for free. I've basically been advised that rocking the boat on this topic
would be likely to be counter-productive. So the chances of persuading ISO
to put a suitable notice on standards in OBP are pretty slim right now.

Regards,

Francis




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arms, Caroline [mailto:caar at loc.gov]
> Sent: 04 September 2013 15:31
> To: 'SC 34 WG4'
> Subject: RE: Part 3 in ISO Online Browsing Platform
> 
> Francis,
> 
> To me, that does seem a major problem with OBP.  I always tell people to
check
> http://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/index.html
first.
> That clearly remains important.
> 
> ISO/IEC 29500-4:2012 is not in the OBP system yet.  But the ISO catalogue
> entry at
>
http://www.iso.org/iso/home/store/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber
=6
> 1798 does direct people to the list of Publicly Available Standards.     I
had
> been naively assuming that OBP would have a similar message, but hadn't
yet
> found a standard to check with.
> 
> The catalogue entry for ISO/IEC 10746-2
>
http://www.iso.org/iso/home/store/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber
=5
> 5723 has no such message.  Perhaps it is a feature only available by
special
> request.  Or maybe there is a data problem here.
> 
> But ISO/IEC 19757-3:2006
https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso-iec:19757:-
> 3:ed-1:v1:en  and
>
http://www.iso.org/iso/home/store/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber
=4
> 0833
> is an example that has the link to the Publicly Available Standards in the
> catalogue, but no such indication in the OBP interface.
> 
> I certainly agree with Dennis that substantive detail is not accessible
> through OBP and that it is frustrating to get messages and links
encouraging
> purchase so often.  But in the past I have had the Library of Congress buy
a
> standards document only to discover that it was unintelligible without one
or
> more additional documents (normative references).  OBP might have
prevented
> that.
> 
> I wonder if there is a channel via which SC34 can recommend adding a link
to
> http://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/index.html to OBP
for
> the standards listed on that page.
> 
>       Caroline
> 
> Caroline Arms
> Library of Congress Contractor
> Co-compiler of Sustainability of Digital Formats resource
> http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/
> 
> ** Views expressed are personal and not necessarily those of the
institution
> ** ________________________________________
> From: Francis Cave [francis at franciscave.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 6:53 AM
> To: dennis.hamilton at acm.org; 'SC 34 WG4'
> Subject: RE: Part 3 in ISO Online Browsing Platform
> 
> Interestingly, even standards that are freely-available appear in the same
> form on OBP. See, for example, ISO/IEC 10746-2,
> (https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso-iec:10746:-2:ed-2:v1:en) which
can be
> freely downloaded in PDF format from the ITTF websit
> (http://standards.iso.org/ittf/PubliclyAvailableStandards/index.html).
> 
> Francis
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamilton at acm.org]
> > Sent: 04 September 2013 05:31
> > To: 'Arms, Caroline'; 'SC 34 WG4'
> > Subject: RE: Part 3 in ISO Online Browsing Platform
> >
> > Caroline, when I visit the sample, anywhere there might be substantive
> > detail I instead see this message:
> >
> >      "This part of the standard is not accessible to you.
> >       To view the full content, you will need to purchase
> >       the standard by clicking on the "Buy" button."
> >
> >  - Dennis
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Arms, Caroline [mailto:caar at loc.gov]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 13:15
> > To: dennis.hamilton at acm.org; 'SC 34 WG4'
> > Subject: RE: Part 3 in ISO Online Browsing Platform
> >
> > Dennis,
> >
> > Just a clarification.  The new ISO Online Browsing Platform (OBP) is
> > not behind a paywall.  Hence my interest in how ISO 29500 parts look
> > in it because it may provide the only view of some standards that is
> > available without paying.  Of course, both ISO 29500 (OOXML) and ISO
> > 26300 (ODF) are freely accessible anyway.  But the Library of Congress
> > and other cultural heritage institutions have interest in many format
> > standards that are not, such as the JPEG 2000 and MPEG families.  OBP
> > only gives a preview of a standard, omitting the main body entirely,
> > but that is a lot better than a current ISO Catalogue entry.  My guess
> > is that it is a resource that will get some use from the digital
> > preservation community.  I will certainly be more inclined to point
> > people in that direction than to the ISO Catalogue.  And maybe the ISO
> Catalogue will end up being merged with the OBP.
> >
> > I am assuming that ISO will continue to distribute entire standards as
> > PDF -- based on the same argument as you make.
> >
> >      Caroline
> >
> > Caroline Arms
> > Library of Congress Contractor
> > Co-compiler of Sustainability of Digital Formats resource
> > http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/
> >
> > ** Views expressed are personal and not necessarily those of the
> > institution
> > ** ________________________________________
> > From: Dennis E. Hamilton [dennis.hamilton at acm.org]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 3:12 PM
> > To: Arms, Caroline; 'SC 34 WG4'
> > Subject: RE: Part 3 in ISO Online Browsing Platform
> >
> > OFF-TOPIC Concerns
> >
> > The notion of having on-line, browser-rendered standards behind a
> > paywall does not sound like something many will want to pay for,
> > considering the reference nature of standards specifications and the
> > potential ephemeral nature of this initiative.  I think I'd prefer an
> > EPUB to whatever the contortions are for this.
> >
> > In the meantime, PDFs are probably the most durable,
> > consistently-usable form available.  Considering the size of the IS
> > 29500 specifications, browser rendering will be toxic for many, and
> > the supplemental machine-readable materials such as schemas still need
> > to be dealt with.  (I find the OASIS linking to the HTML versions of
> > ODF documents to be particularly jarring, ignoring the fact that the
> > HTML conversion is imperfect.)  Thinking about accessing any of the
> > substantial document-format and programming-language standards on my
smart
> phone seems particularly creepy.
> >
> > Once a specification is available at a client, PDF browsing, search,
> > and navigation are far more effective.  I suspect reliance on
> > translation software and handling of accessibility requirements will
also be
> more effective.
> >
> > I do think consideration of translation and especially accessibility
> > is something worth discussion at the SC level, though.
> >
> > On the question of applicability of MCE separate from OOXML, I would
> > hope that is clear in the scope and in any abstract produced for Part 3.
> >
> >  - Dennis
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Arms, Caroline [mailto:caar at loc.gov]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 06:11
> > To: SC 34 WG4
> > Subject: Part 3 in ISO Online Browsing Platform
> >
> > It just struck me that it will be worth considering how a revised Part
> > 3 will look on the ISO Online Browsing Platform.
> >
> >    Exmple display at
https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso-iec:14496:-
> > 21:ed-1:v1:en
> >
> > "Users can now preview the content of standards (including the
> > foreword, table of contents, introduction, scope and bibliographical
> > references), run full- text searches, and use advanced filtering
> > options." is what I find at
> > http://www.iso.org/iso/home/news_index/news_archive/news.htm?refid=Ref
> > 1631
> >
> > I know that we just agreed to shorten scope substantially.  I think it
> > could be useful to review that decision based on what a user of OBP
> > would see.  Will it be clear enough that the MCE mechanism is applicable
> beyond OOXML?
> >
> > I also find  "More standards will be added to the Online Browsing
> > Platform and become available for preview as they are converted into
> > XML format. The goal is to have 30 % of the ISO collection of
> > standards converted by the end of 2012, with the entire portfolio
converted
> by the end of 2013."
> >
> > Does anyone know what XML schema they are using?  And whether they
> > will achieve the goal of 100% conversion by the end of this year?
> >
> >     Thanks.
> >
> >     Caroline
> >
> >
> > Caroline Arms
> > Library of Congress Contractor
> > Co-compiler of Sustainability of Digital Formats resource
> > http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/
> >
> > ** Views expressed are personal and not necessarily those of the
> > institution
> > ** ________________________________________

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