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<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi Mohamed and Shawn,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I think we should be very careful when adding a new graphics
language to OOXML.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Even though I think you both have valid points – even though
they are rather orthogonal to each other – my concern is this:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Switching e.g. graphics language is not a “clear and simple”
thing to do, where we could simply add some prose stating that “from now on use
SVG for graphics”. A few examples:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The graphics language is used for drawing the canvas (is that
the right term?) for the comment in spreadsheet cells. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The graphics language is used for drawing the “frame” containing
an embedded object.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The graphics language is used for drawing the “canvas” for
comments in a document in review-cycle<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The graphics language is used for defining specific layouts in
themes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I would assume there are an enormous amount of similar cases
through-out OOXML (and ODF as well, I’d presume)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>So even though we of course could make this comprehensive list
and create alternatives specified using SVG (assuming that SVG covers all use
cases that DrawingML does), we’d find ourselves in a position where we would
have dual functionality in a large part of the specification. This is exactly the
“mess” we are in with T, where the added functionality from the DIS-process
causes potential information loss and added complexity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>As an example, we have two ways of specifying the frame of an
embedded object in T – one using DrawingML and one using VML. This is not
exactly desirable, if you ask me, and this should be one of the great
motivators for moving to S, where only DrawingML is allowed. By switching from
DrawingML to SVG you’d re-create the same problems in S.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>That being said, creating a profile for “OOXML with MathML” would
be much easier (even with the given functionality-loss) and I think that would
be very interesting to work with.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Talk to you later today/night,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;
color:#1F497D'>J</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Jesper Lund Stocholm<br>
</span></b><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#363434'>c</span></b><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:purple'>i</span></b><b><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#363434'>ber</span></b><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>
Danmark A/S</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Innovimax SARL [mailto:innovimax@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 7. januar 2010 08:06<br>
<b>To:</b> Shawn Villaron<br>
<b>Cc:</b> SC 34 WG4<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Reconsidering the use of SVG in OOXML<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:11 AM, Shawn Villaron <<a
href="mailto:shawnv@microsoft.com">shawnv@microsoft.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Have you evaluated whether or
not SVG can adequately represent DrawingML and VML content? I think
that’s likely to be the first question that needs to be addressed regarding
this topic.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I don't think we can spot all the problem like you do. There
is a whole part of the document using DrawingML or VML that would give the same
or better results with SVG (and also better interrop and tooling perspective to
users).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I think that even if there is cases where DrawingML and VML
could express things that SVG cannot (for which I think they should be
explicitly exposed), it doesn't rule out the 99,99% case where it can without
any trouble.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Furthermore, just to be
clear, SVG can be used in OOXML. I believe that that was the intent of
the contentPart change from the BRM …</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>It is just a "can". My understanding is that there
is no support from existing tools today since it is just an option (like using
CGM or MyFancyVectorialFormat) without any guarantee of interrop or being
handled by the tools.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Furthermore, I fully disrespect with the fact that
contentPart is an option since DrawingML and VML have deeper integration into
the specification that SVG should also have<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>To be clear, what I'm asking for, is a work item on
providing an OOXML with SVG (without Drawing nor VML) profile in order to
express clearly how users and implementers could achieve interrop on that point<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I think that the same should be thought about OOXML
with MathML (without OMML) profile<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>We discussed last time about providing broader visibility to
our work and give people bigger interest : I think that's one face of the coin,
i.e. providing integration with already existing standards<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Mohamed<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><span
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'> Innovimax SARL [mailto:<a
href="mailto:innovimax@gmail.com" target="_blank">innovimax@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 06, 2010 2:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> SC 34 WG4<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Reconsidering the use of SVG in OOXML</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-US>Dear,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-US>Since Microsoft is now officially joining the W3C SVG WG [1], we
should reconsider using SVG in OOXML instead of DrawingML and (even worse) VML<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-US>Mohamed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-US>[1] <a
href="http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/01/05/microsoft-joins-w3c-svg-working-group.aspx"
target="_blank">http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/01/05/microsoft-joins-w3c-svg-working-group.aspx</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-US><br>
-- <br>
Innovimax SARL<br>
Consulting, Training & XML Development<br>
9, impasse des Orteaux<br>
75020 Paris<br>
Tel : +33 9 52 475787<br>
Fax : +33 1 4356 1746<br>
<a href="http://www.innovimax.fr" target="_blank">http://www.innovimax.fr</a><br>
RCS Paris 488.018.631<br>
SARL au capital de 10.000 €<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Innovimax SARL<br>
Consulting, Training & XML Development<br>
9, impasse des Orteaux<br>
75020 Paris<br>
Tel : +33 9 52 475787<br>
Fax : +33 1 4356 1746<br>
<a href="http://www.innovimax.fr">http://www.innovimax.fr</a><br>
RCS Paris 488.018.631<br>
SARL au capital de 10.000 €<o:p></o:p></p>
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