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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hi all –<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I’ve been talking with Gareth, Jesper, Francis and the member formerly known as Chris about an issue with the ISO 8601 dates/times requirements that were added by Amendment 2 (:2011 Amd 1). We wrapped up discussion
last week and I submitted a new proposed DR to Ecma TC45. I expect TC45 to approve that today, in which case I will have that DR out to WG 4 today. Sorry for the short notice, but that’s just how the timing worked. I’d like to add this topic to the DRs
agenda item.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">This one will probably have a bit of discussion and I’m forwarding our discussions below as a basis for the one on the call tomorrow.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> John Haug
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:43 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Horton, Gareth'; 'Jesper Lund Stocholm'; Chris Rae<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Francis Cave'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">TC45 has been looking at the new DR I wrote up and I expect I’ll be able to submit it tomorrow. Anyone mind if I forward this thread to WG 4? I think it would be useful for others to see the discussion we’ve
had and not have to completely rehash all the pros and cons from scratch on the call this week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> John Haug
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 14, 2012 12:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Horton, Gareth'; Jesper Lund Stocholm; Chris Rae<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Francis Cave<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Good comments. I’ll amend what I submit in the DR to note a few options for the suggested fix.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Horton, Gareth
</span><a href="mailto:[mailto:Gareth_Horton@datawatch.com]"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">[mailto:Gareth_Horton@datawatch.com]</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 14, 2012 12:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jesper Lund Stocholm; John Haug; Chris Rae<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Francis Cave<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">Yes, I think “should” is certainly necessary unless we want to add a lot more text and content to the standard, as well as make schema changes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">Although John is of the view that more precision is better, that is only true from an intra-application perspective, not an interop perspective.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">In terms of financial applications and standards concerning finance, it is common to specify levels of precision within the standard – so you assert the level of precision the value is being stored
in perhaps an element or attribute related the value. That way one knows whether the value is exact, or could be already be subject to rounding errors, even at the source.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">For example XBRL encountered many issues coming from inconsistent levels of precision, which was addressed by adding a precision attribute IIRC.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">See this document: </span>
<a href="http://www.xbrl.org/RFC/PDU/PWD-2008-10-09/PDU-RFC-PWD-2008-10-09.html"><span lang="EN-GB">http://www.xbrl.org/RFC/PDU/PWD-2008-10-09/PDU-RFC-PWD-2008-10-09.html</span></a><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">Applications will need to be mindful of dealing with values carefully and not entering into a precision arms race as John seems to favour.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">For example 1,000,000.00 may be exactly that – applications that take that value and then store it as 1,000,000.000000 are incorrect, since it relates to cash transactions and there is no such thing
as a microcent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">Although these examples are not date/time specific, they are illustrative.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">I did find some useful information from an old communications spec:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">“Standards developers shall make provision for receiving systems that require less than six digits of precision in the Fractional Second component to ignore any unneeded trailing decimal places without adversely affecting
interoperability. (Explanatory note: A receiving application entity that represents Time values with low precision shall not return error messages to a sending application entity that represents Time values with higher precision.)”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">Again, the problem is that precision is explicitly asserted in instance document elsewhere (as in Databases), whereas in SML it is not.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">If you want examples of interop issues with fractional seconds, you only have to look at Microsoft Office & SQL Server<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://support.microsoft.com/kb/225334"><span lang="EN-GB">http://support.microsoft.com/kb/225334</span></a><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">Note this problem was never fixed and described as “by design”. This affected our product which depended on these Microsoft components. Essentially a complete failure occurred in the MS component,
since there was no code to deal with precision mismatches.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">A SQL Server issue we also came up against<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://rightondevelopment.blogspot.com/2009/10/sql-server-native-client-100-datetime.html"><span lang="EN-GB">http://rightondevelopment.blogspot.com/2009/10/sql-server-native-client-100-datetime.html</span></a><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">And of course, the world-famous MySQL problem with not even supporting millisecond precision (There’s even a “Downfall” video):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2572209/why-doesnt-mysql-support-millisecond-microsecond-precision"><span lang="EN-GB">http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2572209/why-doesnt-mysql-support-millisecond-microsecond-precision</span></a><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">Note that this is due to the fact that SQL92 compliance does not dictate any precision beyond seconds.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">On another note, we do not support fractional seconds in Monarch (and hence would not be able to fully support Strict if we go with a minimum of 3), since we use Microsoft Access as an underlying
database. Access does not support fractional seconds in the Date/Time datatype.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">Although I support the notion that we should allow flexibility to go beyond millisecond precision, I just want to explain that it does come at the cost of interoperability. Giving a strong steer
that using millisecond precision is a good idea is what we should aim for. Perhaps in the future, we could add information to explicitly assert the precision of values into the spec in another attribute.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">Gareth<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> John Haug
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 14, 2012 12:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Jesper Lund Stocholm'; Horton, Gareth; Chris Rae<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Francis Cave<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I’ll get a DR written up ASAP and try to get it through Ecma before our call next week. Thanks, all.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Jesper Lund Stocholm
</span><a href="mailto:[mailto:jesper.stocholm@ciber.com]"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">[mailto:jesper.stocholm@ciber.com]</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John Haug; Horton, Gareth; Chris Rae<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Francis Cave<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="color:#1F497D">Gentlemen,</span></a><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If you look at the ISO definitions of the word “should”, it says:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The verbal forms shown in Table H.2 shall be used to indicate that among several possibilities
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">one is recommended as particularly suitable, without mentioning or excluding others, or that a
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">certain course of action is preferred but not necessarily required, or that (in the negative form)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">a certain possibility or course of action is deprecated but not prohibited.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="132" valign="top" style="width:98.85pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#1F497D">Verbal form<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
</td>
<td width="350" valign="top" style="width:262.25pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-left:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#1F497D">Equivalent expressions for use in exceptional cases<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
</td>
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<tr>
<td width="132" valign="top" style="width:98.85pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Should<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width="350" valign="top" style="width:262.25pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">it is recommended that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">ought to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
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<tr>
<td width="132" valign="top" style="width:98.85pt;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Should not<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width="350" valign="top" style="width:262.25pt;border-top:none;border-left:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;border-right:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">it is not recommended that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">ought not to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I think this conveys what Gareth mentioned (and I support him on this) pretty well – that we as “standard makers” communicate our intent in terms of providing a suggested minimum level of interop while still
allowing implementers to deviate from this intent. Using the word “should” is indeed the clear opening for implementers that you seek.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I do agree with Francis, though – let’s get a DR in the pipe-line for this and discuss it at the next Teleconference.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Med venlig hilsen / Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Jesper Lund Stocholm<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">CIBER Danmark A/S<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">Mobil: +45 3094 5570<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">Email:
</span><a href="mailto:jesper.stocholm@ciber.com"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">jesper.stocholm@ciber.com</span></a><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">
<span lang="DA"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><img border="0" width="50" height="50" id="_x0000_i1033" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CD069F.6C19A880" alt="Description: Description: mvp_avatar"></span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND NOTICE REGARDING NO ELECTRONIC SIGNATURE: The materials in this electronic transmission (including attachments) may be
subject to attorney-client or work product privilege, may be private and confidential and are the property of the sender. The information contained is intended only for the named addressee(s) and should not be considered evidence of intent to be bound to any
agreement. The taking of any action in reliance on the contents is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, please immediately notify the sender and promptly delete this message.</span><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Francis Cave
</span><a href="mailto:[mailto:francis@franciscave.com]"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">[mailto:francis@franciscave.com]</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John Haug; 'Jesper Lund Stocholm'; 'Horton, Gareth'; Chris Rae<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">Hi all – I’ve stayed out of this discussion because I’m not that familiar with the detail and Gareth knows far more than I do about what makes sense in dates in SpreadsheetML. However, my impression
from the discussion is that there is definitely some kind of defect in the current text, since it would appear that it was never the intention of Gareth and Chris to limit implementations to store a
<i>maximum</i> of 3 decimal places for seconds. Filing a DR will get this discussed by the WG as a whole, and in the unlikely event that no change is needed, the DR can be closed without action.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D">Francis<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> John Haug
</span><a href="mailto:[mailto:johnhaug@exchange.microsoft.com]"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">[mailto:johnhaug@exchange.microsoft.com]</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jesper Lund Stocholm; Horton, Gareth; Chris Rae<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Francis Cave<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Any comments on that suggestion?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> John Haug
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Jesper Lund Stocholm'; Horton, Gareth; Chris Rae<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Francis Cave<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I think “should” still says that the standard implies that 3 is what implementations should target. I’d be more in favor of a clear opening for implementations to be better, but with a minimum bar for the consistency
that Gareth is looking for.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">So it seems there is budding consensus that this needs to be changed. Since I started this kerfluffle, er, discussion, I can file a DR through Ecma and we can all discuss it on the next call in a few weeks.
Sound OK?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Jesper Lund Stocholm
</span><a href="mailto:[mailto:jesper.stocholm@ciber.com]"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">[mailto:jesper.stocholm@ciber.com]</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 08, 2012 1:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John Haug; Horton, Gareth; Chris Rae<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Francis Cave<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA" style="color:#1F497D">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I think a maximum of three decimal places is waaay too low for any real use. You don’t need to add more than a couple of non-integer numbers before you ram into rounding errors that would seem illogical to the
users.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The best way to deal with this in our situation would be to switch the “shall” with “should”. That would allow implementations to use a broader range – while preserving the intent of the makers of the standard
(us) on a setting a suggested minimum interoperability level.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Med venlig hilsen / Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Jesper Lund Stocholm<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">CIBER Danmark A/S<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">Mobil: +45 3094 5570<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">Email:
</span><a href="mailto:jesper.stocholm@ciber.com"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">jesper.stocholm@ciber.com</span></a><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">
</span><span lang="DA" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><img border="0" width="50" height="50" id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CD069F.6C19A880" alt="Description: Description: mvp_avatar"></span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND NOTICE REGARDING NO ELECTRONIC SIGNATURE: The materials in this electronic transmission (including attachments) may be
subject to attorney-client or work product privilege, may be private and confidential and are the property of the sender. The information contained is intended only for the named addressee(s) and should not be considered evidence of intent to be bound to any
agreement. The taking of any action in reliance on the contents is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, please immediately notify the sender and promptly delete this message.</span><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> John Haug
</span><a href="mailto:[mailto:johnhaug@exchange.microsoft.com]"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">[mailto:johnhaug@exchange.microsoft.com]</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Horton, Gareth; Chris Rae; Jesper Lund Stocholm<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Francis Cave<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">> </span>which is why 3 should be the default and minimum<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">That seems a reasonable thing to do in the standard. Is it an error that the Amendment says “no more than”? Should that have been “no fewer than”? If so, that’s an easy COR to the AMD that would run through
the “rapid COR” path Makoto talked about when we were discussing the 2-year publish cycle question in Prague.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span style="font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><u><span style="color:blue">The decimal separator shall be a full stop (period), and fractional seconds shall be expressed with no more than three decimal places.</span></u><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If the standard allowed an implementation to store more than 3 decimal places without that being a deviation, I think that would be much better than the current situation. It would set a minimum bar for consistency
without restricting finer precision, introducing interoperability problems (i.e., readers would be on notice that there may be more than 3 decimal places) or requiring an external extension defined over in left field. Is this acceptable to people?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">> </span>there is no reason it can't decide to write in transitional instead<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">True, but limitations like this would make it hard to ever see Strict become the default file format. We can’t have the native format be lossy by definition.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">> </span>they are not the core user community of spreadsheet users and indeed, are using them for a job they were not intended to perform<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Not the core, no, but desktop spreadsheet software has become a widely accepted analytic tool in more than a couple industries, in no small part because Excel has provided reliable fine precision in its calculation
engine. Scary as it may seem on first blush, Excel sheets run half the world’s financial systems! This is why we’re so skittish about any sort of data loss, particularly in spreadsheets, even if it’s not in the core mathematical calculations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Horton, Gareth
</span><a href="mailto:[mailto:Gareth_Horton@datawatch.com]"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">[mailto:Gareth_Horton@datawatch.com]</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John Haug; Chris Rae; Jesper Lund Stocholm<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Francis Cave<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi John,<br>
<br>
I think flexibility is useful, which is why 3 should be the default and minimum, but we should consider allowing implementations to store more if they document it.<br>
<br>
The second part of your argument would of course be the same if the analyst etc was consuming in different applications.<br>
<br>
If the precision causes backward compatibility issues for Excel, there is no reason it can't decide to write in transitional instead. It's one solution, but more top end flexibility is probably a reasonable tradeoff at the cost of interoperability.<br>
<br>
We should probably keep in mind that we are dealing with document formats, not database or analysis software file formats.<br>
<br>
No doubt there are edge case users of Excel that want to store time in sub-millisecond precision, but they are not the core user community of spreadsheet users and indeed, are using them for a job they were not intended to perform.<br>
<br>
Perhaps it is a case for an extension to store "high precision" data, so as to maintain a reasonable bar for implementors of software that want to produce and consume typical spreadsheets in a very interoperable way and not have to deal with such edge cases.<br>
<br>
Gareth<br>
<br>
Gareth Horton<br>
Senior Product Manager<br>
Datawatch Corporation<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">John Haug</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Sent: </span>
</b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">07/03/2012 17:50</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">To: </span>
</b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Horton, Gareth; Chris Rae; Jesper Lund Stocholm</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Cc: </span>
</b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Francis Cave</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Subject:
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hmm, I’m not sure that attempting to enforce consistency across implementations by creating a lowest common denominator for data storage is the right thing. I don’t see how that is more beneficial than data
loss and creating inconsistency between what a user sees at creation time and after saving/loading the file. I don’t see how interoperability is harmed by allowing freedom in data precision. Given that different implementations will have different internal
precisions (e.g., single- vs. double-precision), perhaps for a good reason depending on what a particular implementation’s usage scenario focus is, hobbling the data format seems detrimental. I think – and I’ll bet most or all users would agree – that consistency
within a single implementation is 100% expected, but there is a slightly lower bar for expecting n-th decimal consistency when sharing between different implementations since there will be variances in each implementation’s internal precision and calculation
engines.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">What happens if an analyst is dealing with timestamped financial transactions and the data changes between the initial user session for some piece of data and the next session? How about a scientist/engineer
sifting through myriad timestamped measurements? What if time data is calculated in a very specific way, perhaps by a formula? It leads to unexpected changes that can cause problems for users.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Horton, Gareth
</span><a href="mailto:[mailto:Gareth_Horton@datawatch.com]"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">[mailto:Gareth_Horton@datawatch.com]</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 07, 2012 2:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John Haug; Chris Rae; Jesper Lund Stocholm<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Francis Cave<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In an attempt to try and get consistent results across implementations.<br>
<br>
Gareth<br>
<br>
Gareth Horton<br>
Senior Product Manager<br>
Datawatch Corporation<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">John Haug</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Sent: </span>
</b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">07/03/2012 17:17</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">To: </span>
</b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Chris Rae; Jesper Lund Stocholm; Horton, Gareth</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Cc: </span>
</b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Francis Cave</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Subject:
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I’m confused as to why we would mandate the number of decimal places in the XML/decimal representation of the data in the first place. What does it matter? Why not let an implementation write out as much precision
as it can (or wants to) and read in as much as it is able (or wants to)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Chris Rae
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 07, 2012 11:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jesper Lund Stocholm; Horton, Gareth; John Haug<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Francis Cave<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks for digging this up, as my memory of the situation appears to be entirely wrong. I remember being against restricting this, and Gareth wanting to have 3 dps.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">It looks to me like Gareth and I were intending increasing the number of DPs and then just forgot to work it into the draft?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Chris<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Jesper Lund Stocholm
</span><a href="mailto:[mailto:jesper.stocholm@ciber.com]"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">[mailto:jesper.stocholm@ciber.com]</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 07 March 2012 05:09<br>
<b>To:</b> Horton, Gareth; John Haug<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Chris Rae; Francis Cave<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The thread starts here: </span><a href="http://mailman.vse.cz/pipermail/sc34wg4/2010-April/001401.html">http://mailman.vse.cz/pipermail/sc34wg4/2010-April/001401.html</a><span lang="DA"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I have a private email from Chris to Gareth and me (document attached here) with a first draft of what became to be the ISO profile where the “3 decimal places” is included – I have no idea of how it got there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">On July 8<sup>th</sup> Chris sent a first public draft of the amendment to the email list (document also attached here).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I’d be happy to submit a defect report / comment on this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Med venlig hilsen / Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Jesper Lund Stocholm<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">CIBER Danmark A/S<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">Mobil: +45 3094 5570<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">Email:
</span><a href="mailto:jesper.stocholm@ciber.com"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">jesper.stocholm@ciber.com</span></a><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">
</span><span lang="DA" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><img border="0" width="50" height="50" id="Picture_x0020_5" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CD069F.6C19A880" alt="Description: Description: mvp_avatar"></span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND NOTICE REGARDING NO ELECTRONIC SIGNATURE: The materials in this electronic transmission (including attachments) may be
subject to attorney-client or work product privilege, may be private and confidential and are the property of the sender. The information contained is intended only for the named addressee(s) and should not be considered evidence of intent to be bound to any
agreement. The taking of any action in reliance on the contents is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, please immediately notify the sender and promptly delete this message.</span><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Horton, Gareth
</span><a href="mailto:[mailto:Gareth_Horton@datawatch.com]"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">[mailto:Gareth_Horton@datawatch.com]</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jesper Lund Stocholm; John Haug<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Chris Rae; Francis Cave<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA">Hi all,<br>
<br>
I'm travelling at the moment, so a little difficult to check.<br>
<br>
However, there were mails sent to the WG4 mailing list on this. Search for "precision".<br>
<br>
As far as I recall, I posited a straw man of using milliseconds precision and Chris went back to some experts on the Excel team.<br>
<br>
It seemed acceptable, so we went with it.<br>
<br>
However, I think we should have gone with a minimum of 3 dp for fractional seconds, but allowed greater precision documented by those implementations, as in the XML Schema datatypes spec.<br>
<br>
I'm not sure if we can fix this, as I only have my phone and can't recall the state of the amendment and whether it's possible for a NB to submit a comment to address this before publication.<br>
<br>
I've copied Francis on this for his input.<br>
<br>
Gareth<br>
<br>
Gareth Horton<br>
Senior Product Manager<br>
Datawatch Corporation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span lang="DA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:
</span></b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Jesper Lund Stocholm</span><span lang="DA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Sent:
</span></b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">07/03/2012 07:27</span><span lang="DA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">To:
</span></b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">John Haug</span><span lang="DA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Cc:
</span></b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Horton, Gareth; Chris Rae</span><span lang="DA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><br>
</span><b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Subject:
</span></b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">RE: Excel & ISO 8601 times</span><span lang="DA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hi guys,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Even though Chris and Gareth were the main drivers on the ISO date thingy, I was a bit involved too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Sadly, I have absolutely no recollection of how/when the “three decimal places” got into the spec.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">(adding Chris to the thread)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Med venlig hilsen / Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Jesper Lund Stocholm<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">CIBER Danmark A/S<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">Mobil: +45 3094 5570<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">Email:
</span><a href="mailto:jesper.stocholm@ciber.com"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">jesper.stocholm@ciber.com</span></a><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">
</span><span lang="DA" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050"><img border="0" width="50" height="50" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CD069F.6C19A880" alt="Description: Description: mvp_avatar"></span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#505050">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND NOTICE REGARDING NO ELECTRONIC SIGNATURE: The materials in this electronic transmission (including attachments) may be
subject to attorney-client or work product privilege, may be private and confidential and are the property of the sender. The information contained is intended only for the named addressee(s) and should not be considered evidence of intent to be bound to any
agreement. The taking of any action in reliance on the contents is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, please immediately notify the sender and promptly delete this message.</span><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> John Haug
</span><a href="mailto:[mailto:johnhaug@exchange.microsoft.com]"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">[mailto:johnhaug@exchange.microsoft.com]</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 07, 2012 12:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Horton, Gareth (</span><a href="mailto:Gareth_Horton@datawatch.com"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Gareth_Horton@datawatch.com</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jesper Lund Stocholm<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Excel & ISO 8601 times<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi guys –<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jesper filed a bug about Excel “15” not truncating time-only values to three decimal places. That seemed rather odd but the amendment does say that in 18.17.4. I recall this was something Chris and Gareth worked on, before I got re-involved.
I’m curious what the rationale is for that truncation, as it seems to clearly lead to loss of precision / data loss.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">John<o:p></o:p></p>
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