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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]/*EC*/--></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Alfred<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>You might find it helpful to chat to Alex Brown, Convenor of SC 34/WG 8, who was Project Editor for ISO/IEC 21320-1 Document Container File – Part 1: Core. He and Rex were involved in collaboration between SC 34 and PKWARE on defining a standard profile of ZIP for use in possible future packaged document formats, and I’m sure that Alex would have some interesting insights into areas for possible improvement of the standard ZIP format in ways that wouldn’t breach any of PKWARE’s IPR. Unfortunately, Alex won’t be in Milan, but I’m sure you could communicate with him remotely.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Francis<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> caroline arms <caroline.arms@gmail.com> <br><b>Sent:</b> 29 January 2019 22:20<br><b>To:</b> Alfred Hellstern <Alfred.Hellstern@microsoft.com><br><b>Cc:</b> Murata <eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp>; SC 34 WG4 <e-SC34-WG4@ecma-international.org>; Rex Jaeschke <rex@rexjaeschke.com>; Rich McLain <richmc@microsoft.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: ZIP version used for OPC<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Alfred,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>"Public domain" is a copyright term and applies only to the document (the APPNOTE.TXT document). Compression algorithms can covered by patents and thus subject to licenses.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>As to the choice of ZIP, that was certainly made by Microsoft itself, probably long before any current members of WG4 were involved with OOXML. You might see if someone from the Office team who was around back then might help you get the early history.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Rex and I were involved in the Ecma standardization process, although I only joined the working group fairly late in the process. What I remember about ZIP from then is that at that point, PKWARE brought out a new APPNOTE.TXT with every change and stopped providing access to old versions. Jean Paoli, or someone else in the Microsoft OOXML team, talked to PKWARE and got them to agree to leave a copy of the version of APPNOTE.TXT used in OOXML ( and indeed by the Open Document Format) available. I was involved in a related effort, to get copies of all old versions available at the Library of Congress. See <a href="https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/intro/specifications.shtml">https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/intro/specifications.shtml</a> . As a result of these discussions, PKWARE made a decision to change its strategy and does now make old versions available on its website. A couple of those files are actually ones I retrieved from the Internet Archive and sent to PKWARE.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[Aside: The same page has links to the specs for the binary Office formats. That was requested by Jean Paoli as a step to make sure that Microsoft was making those specs available somewhere trusted.]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I hope that helps a bit.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> Caroline<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 4:48 PM Alfred Hellstern <<a href="mailto:Alfred.Hellstern@microsoft.com">Alfred.Hellstern@microsoft.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>Thanks Murata-san. Are you saying that if WG4 were to make a normative reference to a newer version of the ZIP format, we’d be forcing implementers to pay licensing fees to PKWare?</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> </span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>However, in the Wikipedia topic on PKWare, I find the following:</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white'>PKZIP was the first program to use the new </span><span lang=DE><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZIP_(file_format)" target="_blank" title="ZIP (file format)"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0B0080;background:white;text-decoration:none'>ZIP file format</span></a></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white'>, which Katz developed in conjunction with Gary Conway and subsequently released into the </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:yellow'>public domain</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white'>. PKWARE grew rapidly in its early years, fueled by enthusiasm from the bulletin board and shareware communities, along with steady business from large corporations who were eager to minimize the demands on their limited computing resources.</span><sup id="gmail-m_-636455500041326862cite_ref-wsjkatz_1-1"><span lang=DE style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white'><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKWare#cite_note-wsjkatz-1" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US style='color:#0B0080;text-decoration:none'>[1]</span></a></span></sup><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white'> The .ZIP format proved so popular that it became the de facto standard for data compression and remains in use throughout the world after more than 30 years.</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white'>…</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white'>In addition to its data compression and encryption products, </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:yellow'>PKWARE continues to maintain the .ZIP file format standard in the public domain</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white'>. The company publishes an Application Note on the .ZIP file format, providing developers a general description and technical details of the .ZIP file storage specification.</span><sup id="gmail-m_-636455500041326862cite_ref-APP_Note_7-0"><span lang=DE style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white'><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKWare#cite_note-APP_Note-7" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-US style='color:#0B0080;text-decoration:none'>[7]</span></a></span></sup><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white'> This Application Note ensures continued interoperability of the .ZIP file format for all users. (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKWare" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKWare</a>)</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> </span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>If it’s public domain, doesn’t that mean “no licensing fees”?</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> </span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>Do you or anyone have a bit more history on when and why ZIP was chosen, and how the licensing aspect was dealt with back then?</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> </span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>Thanks</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>ALfred</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> </span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> </span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> MURATA Makoto <<a href="mailto:eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp" target="_blank">eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 24, 2019 8:39 PM<br><b>To:</b> Alfred Hellstern <<a href="mailto:Alfred.Hellstern@microsoft.com" target="_blank">Alfred.Hellstern@microsoft.com</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> SC 34 WG4 <<a href="mailto:e-SC34-WG4@ecma-international.org" target="_blank">e-SC34-WG4@ecma-international.org</a>>; caroline arms <<a href="mailto:caroline.arms@gmail.com" target="_blank">caroline.arms@gmail.com</a>>; Rex Jaeschke <<a href="mailto:rex@RexJaeschke.com">rex@RexJaeschke.com</a>>; Rich McLain <<a href="mailto:richmc@microsoft.com" target="_blank">richmc@microsoft.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: ZIP version used for OPC</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>Alfred,<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>First, I strongly think that digital signatures of OPC have<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>to be significantly extended. XAdES EN, XML DSig 1.1, and<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>SHA 256 are strongly required. But WG4 has agreed not to<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>do so in this revision. One reason is that the revision of<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>ISO 14533-2:2012 (XAdES Profile) has not been completed<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>yet. After the current revision of OPC is completed, I<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>hope to start an amendment project for digital signatures.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>Second, it is not only OPC that uses DEFLATE and <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>nothing else. EPUB does the same thing. I believe <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>that other compression methods as documented in <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>PKWARE Appnote require license fee to PKWARE.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>Makoto<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>2019</span><span lang=JA style='font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA'>年</span><span lang=DE>1</span><span lang=JA style='font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA'>月</span><span lang=DE>25</span><span lang=JA style='font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA'>日</span><span lang=DE>(</span><span lang=JA style='font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:JA'>金</span><span lang=DE>) 6:08 Alfred Hellstern <<a href="mailto:Alfred.Hellstern@microsoft.com" target="_blank">Alfred.Hellstern@microsoft.com</a>>:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>Hello all,</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>The Visual Studio team is looking into the OPC review, but in the meantime they were wondering about the ZIP compression format:</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> </span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US>“What is of more concern to me is no movement forward to support newer, better compression algorithms (i.e. based still on ZIP, which itself is limited to fairly light compression), and signature requirements to use only SHA1 which is no longer considered secure. Is the WG considering addressing these specifications while modernizing the OPC protocols? I appreciate that changing the container format is a daunting and perhaps irreconcilable task, but adding support for SHA256 or even dual-signing should be supported given that the signed XML specification that OPC uses has supported multiple signature algorithms for a very long time.”</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> </span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>What’s our take on moving forward from the current ZIP version we’re using? I suspect this also has to do with the version of ZIP that Windows itself uses in its Compressed Folders feature (and see this blog post <a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblogs.msdn.microsoft.com%2Foldnewthing%2F20180515-00%2F%3Fp%3D98755&data=02%7C01%7CAlfred.Hellstern%40microsoft.com%7C47c250fcd9c34a3ff95908d6827f1807%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636839879712056531&sdata=lU5OLp1tfml84tYlAaasgSDePDLJdBqYYpNk9wzod7Y%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20180515-00/?p=98755</a> indicating that’s not going to -ever- change.</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US> </span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>Alfred</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=DE style='background:white'> </span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p align=center style='text-align:center'><span lang=DE style='background:white'>Click <a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mailcontrol.com%2Fsr%2FMZbqvYs5QwJvpeaetUwhCQ%3D%3D&data=02%7C01%7CAlfred.Hellstern%40microsoft.com%7C47c250fcd9c34a3ff95908d6827f1807%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636839879712066540&sdata=T8bitOHcObttmrZ6i9uPw1fNEbuq0KPADz%2BYydK569c%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">here</a> to report this email as spam.</span><span lang=DE><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=DE> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p align=center style='text-align:center'><span lang=DE style='background:white'>This message has been scanned for malware by Forcepoint. </span><span lang=DE><a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.forcepoint.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7CAlfred.Hellstern%40microsoft.com%7C47c250fcd9c34a3ff95908d6827f1807%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636839879712066540&sdata=2yqQkL%2Bb3AVK1xTJUz7FQlgRLF5p3C4dyInjeW31VgY%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><span style='color:black;background:white'>www.forcepoint.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=DE><br>Praying for the victims of the Japan Tohoku earthquake<br><br>Makoto<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></body></html>