<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Alfred,</div><div><br></div><div>"Public domain" is a copyright term and applies only to the document (the APPNOTE.TXT document). Compression algorithms can covered by patents and thus subject to licenses.</div><div><br></div><div>As to the choice of ZIP, that was certainly made by Microsoft itself, probably long before any current members of WG4 were involved with OOXML. You might see if someone from the Office team who was around back then might help you get the early history.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Rex and I were involved in the Ecma standardization process, although I only joined the working group fairly late in the process. What I remember about ZIP from then is that at that point, PKWARE brought out a new APPNOTE.TXT with every change and stopped providing access to old versions. Jean Paoli, or someone else in the Microsoft OOXML team, talked to PKWARE and got them to agree to leave a copy of the version of APPNOTE.TXT used in OOXML ( and indeed by the Open Document Format) available. I was involved in a related effort, to get copies of all old versions available at the Library of Congress. See <a href="https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/intro/specifications.shtml">https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/intro/specifications.shtml</a> . As a result of these discussions, PKWARE made a decision to change its strategy and does now make old versions available on its website. A couple of those files are actually ones I retrieved from the Internet Archive and sent to PKWARE.<br></div><div><br></div><div>[Aside: The same page has links to the specs for the binary Office formats. That was requested by Jean Paoli as a step to make sure that Microsoft was making those specs available somewhere trusted.]</div><div><br></div><div>I hope that helps a bit.</div><div><br></div><div> Caroline<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 4:48 PM Alfred Hellstern <<a href="mailto:Alfred.Hellstern@microsoft.com">Alfred.Hellstern@microsoft.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks Murata-san. Are you saying that if WG4 were to make a normative reference to a newer version of the ZIP format, we’d be forcing implementers to pay licensing fees to PKWare?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">However, in the Wikipedia topic on PKWare, I find the following:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%" lang="EN-US">PKZIP was the first program to use the new </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZIP_(file_format)" title="ZIP (file format)" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%;text-decoration:none" lang="EN-US">ZIP
file format</span></a><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%" lang="EN-US">, which Katz developed in conjunction with Gary Conway and subsequently released into the
<span style="background:yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%">public domain</span>. PKWARE grew rapidly in its early years, fueled by enthusiasm from the bulletin board and shareware communities, along with steady business from large corporations who were eager to minimize
the demands on their limited computing resources.</span><sup id="gmail-m_-636455500041326862cite_ref-wsjkatz_1-1"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKWare#cite_note-wsjkatz-1" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(11,0,128);text-decoration:none" lang="EN-US">[1]</span></a></span></sup><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%" lang="EN-US"> The
.ZIP format proved so popular that it became the de facto standard for data compression and remains in use throughout the world after more than 30 years.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%" lang="EN-US">…<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%" lang="EN-US">In addition to its data compression and encryption products,
<span style="background:yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%">PKWARE continues to maintain the .ZIP file format standard in the public domain</span>. The company publishes an Application Note on the .ZIP file format, providing developers a general description and technical
details of the .ZIP file storage specification.</span><sup id="gmail-m_-636455500041326862cite_ref-APP_Note_7-0"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKWare#cite_note-APP_Note-7" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(11,0,128);text-decoration:none" lang="EN-US">[7]</span></a></span></sup><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%" lang="EN-US"> This
Application Note ensures continued interoperability of the .ZIP file format for all users. (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKWare" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKWare</a>)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">If it’s public domain, doesn’t that mean “no licensing fees”?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Do you or anyone have a bit more history on when and why ZIP was chosen, and how the licensing aspect was dealt with back then?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">ALfred<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> MURATA Makoto <<a href="mailto:eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp" target="_blank">eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 24, 2019 8:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alfred Hellstern <<a href="mailto:Alfred.Hellstern@microsoft.com" target="_blank">Alfred.Hellstern@microsoft.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> SC 34 WG4 <<a href="mailto:e-SC34-WG4@ecma-international.org" target="_blank">e-SC34-WG4@ecma-international.org</a>>; caroline arms <<a href="mailto:caroline.arms@gmail.com" target="_blank">caroline.arms@gmail.com</a>>; Rex Jaeschke <rex@RexJaeschke.com>; Rich McLain <<a href="mailto:richmc@microsoft.com" target="_blank">richmc@microsoft.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: ZIP version used for OPC<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Alfred,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">First, I strongly think that digital signatures of OPC have<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">to be significantly extended. XAdES EN, XML DSig 1.1, and<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">SHA 256 are strongly required. But WG4 has agreed not to<u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">do so in this revision. One reason is that the revision of<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">ISO 14533-2:2012 (XAdES Profile) has not been completed<u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">yet. After the current revision of OPC is completed, I<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">hope to start an amendment project for digital signatures.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Second, it is not only OPC that uses DEFLATE and <u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">nothing else. EPUB does the same thing. I believe <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">that other compression methods as documented in <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">PKWARE Appnote require license fee to PKWARE.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Makoto<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2019<span style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif" lang="JA">年</span>1<span style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif" lang="JA">月</span>25<span style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif" lang="JA">日</span>(<span style="font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif" lang="JA">金</span>)
6:08 Alfred Hellstern <<a href="mailto:Alfred.Hellstern@microsoft.com" target="_blank">Alfred.Hellstern@microsoft.com</a>>:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hello all,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The Visual Studio team is looking into the OPC review, but in the meantime they were wondering about the ZIP compression format:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">
<span lang="EN-US">“What is of more concern to me is no movement forward to support newer, better compression algorithms (i.e. based still on ZIP, which itself is limited to fairly light compression), and signature requirements to use only SHA1 which is no
longer considered secure. Is the WG considering addressing these specifications while modernizing the OPC protocols? I appreciate that changing the container format is a daunting and perhaps irreconcilable task, but adding support for SHA256 or even dual-signing
should be supported given that the signed XML specification that OPC uses has supported multiple signature algorithms for a very long time.”</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">What’s our take on moving forward from the current ZIP version we’re using? I suspect this also has to do with the version of ZIP that Windows itself uses in
its Compressed Folders feature (and see this blog post <a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblogs.msdn.microsoft.com%2Foldnewthing%2F20180515-00%2F%3Fp%3D98755&data=02%7C01%7CAlfred.Hellstern%40microsoft.com%7C47c250fcd9c34a3ff95908d6827f1807%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636839879712056531&sdata=lU5OLp1tfml84tYlAaasgSDePDLJdBqYYpNk9wzod7Y%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20180515-00/?p=98755</a> indicating that’s not going to -ever- change.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Alfred</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%">Click <a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mailcontrol.com%2Fsr%2FMZbqvYs5QwJvpeaetUwhCQ%3D%3D&data=02%7C01%7CAlfred.Hellstern%40microsoft.com%7C47c250fcd9c34a3ff95908d6827f1807%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636839879712066540&sdata=T8bitOHcObttmrZ6i9uPw1fNEbuq0KPADz%2BYydK569c%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
here</a> to report this email as spam.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%">This message has been scanned for malware by Forcepoint.
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<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Praying for the victims of the Japan Tohoku earthquake<br>
<br>
Makoto<u></u><u></u></p>
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