DR-16-0018: WML: need sort method for special characters [for today's call]

[keld at keldix.com]

I understand that this issue was based on a wish to have a
sorting of special characters. 

I am not aware of what MS does but I see some reference to a system locale.
Given that the system locale plays a role in the behaviour of OOXML documents,
it would be nice to document this, and
also for document portability that the system locale be stored with the
document, if this is not already done.

Also this could be easily extendable so that the author could set
it to another locale. And there is a kind of uniformity across platforms 
of names of systems locales, at least the form "language-country" in the form
of ISO 639 and ISO 3166 codes seem to be used on all platforms, and  even
on the web.

Best regards
keld

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 09:35:04PM +0900, MURATA Makoto wrote:
> Although I understand the desire to fully document behaviors of
> MS Excel, I do not see any reasons to change them and extend
> OOXML formats.  Embedding locales sounds interesting, but
> why is this really needed?
> 
> Regards,
> Makoto
> 
> 2017-07-19 21:21 GMT+09:00 <keld at keldix.com>:
> 
> > I have not looked into the various japanese specs. But I see that there
> > are a number.
> > I think the ordering scheme should be stored with the document, and very
> > much
> > related to the language of the document. You can say that a locale should
> > be
> > stored with the document, or with sections of a document.
> >
> > This would then cover what normally goes into a locale, such as sorting of
> > characters,
> > number formatting, date and time formatting, character information etc.
> > For our documents also spelling rules -  etc.
> >
> > Then this can be overridden by specific cell or section information, such
> > as number
> > formatting of a cell, or that a section is in a   different language.
> >
> > It would be nice for the user if a reference to the system locale could be
> > made.
> > But for portability of the document, it should be possible to refer to a
> > portable spec of
> > the locale. CLDR and the ISO cultural registry ISO 15897 could be used for
> > this.
> >
> > Best regards
> > keld
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 08:44:10PM +0900, MURATA Makoto wrote:
> > > But the sort order for Japanese shown in this document is different from
> > > what
> > > MS Excel does and what X 4061 says.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Makoto
> > >
> > > 2017-07-19 20:38 GMT+09:00 <keld at keldix.com>:
> > >
> > > > Dear Makoto-san
> > > >
> > > > Microsoft has some information:
> > > > https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc194863.aspx
> > > >
> > > > It does not refer 14651 nor UTS #10, but I think it is built on these
> > > > specs.
> > > > I believe all Microsoft sorting specs are built on 14651/UTS #10.
> > > >
> > > > It does mention a default system locale, and it does then refer to
> > various
> > > > ways
> > > > of sorting chinese characters, incluting Unicode (10646) codepoint
> > order,
> > > > strokes,
> > > > phonetical and some japanese shift jis order, which I think is
> > conformant
> > > > to X4061.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards
> > > > keld
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 07:57:50PM +0900, MURATA Makoto wrote:
> > > > > Keld,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you.  I did not know that.  I am still looking for the
> > tailoring
> > > > for
> > > > > JIS X 4061,
> > > > > but it is good to know it is somewhere in CLDR.  Are there tailoring
> > for
> > > > > Chinese?
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Makoto
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2017-07-19 19:04 GMT+09:00 <keld at keldix.com>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Makoto-san
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I found out that indeed JIS X 4061 is supported in the Unicode
> > > > collection
> > > > > > of sorting specifications,
> > > > > > which are tailoring of 14651 specs:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29874198/which-
> > > > > > japanese-sorting-collation-orders-are-supported-by-icu-cldr-uca
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards
> > > > > > keld
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 11:33:03AM +0200, keld at keldix.com wrote:
> > > > > > > I think that MS excel uses 14651 or the equivalent Unicode UTS
> > #10.
> > > > > > > Microsoft normailly uses Unicode specifications in many of their
> > > > > > > products, and 14651/UTS #10 is readily availiable in Microsoft's
> > > > > > > operating systems, as far as I know.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But we can find out.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Many applications use nowadays ISO 10646/Unicode, and just
> > having the
> > > > > > > sorting specifications for the characters of X0208 and X0201 is
> > not
> > > > > > enough in
> > > > > > > todays Japanese environments, especially if you run modern
> > > > > > > microsoft operating systems and use the MS Office application.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But you can have a tailoring of the 14651 template that is
> > > > conforming to
> > > > > > > JIS X 4061, so that all of the characters of X0208 and X0201 are
> > > > sorted
> > > > > > > correctly  - and then the rest of the Japanese characters,
> > including
> > > > > > those in X0212,
> > > > > > > are also sorted in a culturally acceptable order.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I remember from our previous meetings, Makoto-san, that you seem
> > to
> > > > be
> > > > > > fond
> > > > > > > of Unicode specifications. In this case the ISO and Unicode
> > specs are
> > > > > > technically the
> > > > > > > same, so I hope that this fact will make you more positive about
> > > > > > referencing
> > > > > > > the ISO 14651 standard and template.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best regards
> > > > > > > Keld
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 06:07:06PM +0900, MURATA Makoto wrote:
> > > > > > > > But in Japan, we did not rewrite JIS X 4061 on the basis of ISO
> > > > 14651.
> > > > > > > > I do not know if China has created their tailoring of 14651.
> > I do
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > that MS Excel relies on 14651.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I agree that 14651 is good for future projects.  But I do not
> > > > > > > > think that it is practically possible to document what MS Excel
> > > > > > > > does using 14651.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > Makoto
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2017-07-19 18:00 GMT+09:00 <keld at keldix.com>:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dear Makato-san
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have asked a sorting expert, who is the editor of 14651,
> > and he
> > > > > > says that
> > > > > > > > > for Japanese and Chinese, there surely is a need for
> > tailoring
> > > > the
> > > > > > sorting
> > > > > > > > > template
> > > > > > > > > in 14651. I also know that for my own language, Danish, a
> > > > tailoring
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > 14651
> > > > > > > > > is required.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A number of tailoring is already available for this, for many
> > > > > > languages,
> > > > > > > > > and also in use in the marketplace, and readily available as
> > open
> > > > > > source
> > > > > > > > > specifications.
> > > > > > > > > It is many hundreds of specifications. I can come back with
> > more
> > > > > > > > > information.
> > > > > > > > > But in the first place I can refer to the glibc
> > specifications
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > CLDR collections
> > > > > > > > > of sorting specifications. They both build on the ISO 14651
> > > > template.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So I think a normative reference to ISO 14651 is very
> > relevant,
> > > > as
> > > > > > this is
> > > > > > > > > what is done
> > > > > > > > > in the marketplace, and then also a mention of glibc and CLDR
> > > > sorting
> > > > > > > > > could be mentioned
> > > > > > > > > in the bibliography.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best regards
> > > > > > > > > keld
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 09:43:00PM +0900, MURATA Makoto
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > ISO/IEC 14651 defines a reference comparison method and a
> > > > common
> > > > > > > > > > template table for ordering text data.  It is necessary to
> > > > tailor
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > common template table for a given language's ordering.  For
> > > > > > example,
> > > > > > > > > > the order of CJK ideographic characters is based on UCS
> > code
> > > > > > points,
> > > > > > > > > > and thus look meaningless to human CJK users.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Meanwhile, Japanese standard (JIS X 4061:1996) defines
> > > > ordering of
> > > > > > > > > > Japanese text.  JIS X 4061 is NOT based on ISO/IEC 14651.
> > Its
> > > > > > > > > > ordering is based on code points in JIS X 0208 and X0201
> > > > (which is
> > > > > > > > > > roughly equal to US-ASCII).  This ordernig makes sense for
> > > > Japanese
> > > > > > > > > > users, since code points in these standards are based on
> > the
> > > > > > Japanese
> > > > > > > > > > alphabetical order of the kana transcription of each Kanji.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I do not believe that referencing ISO/IEC 14651 from OOXML
> > is
> > > > > > useful,
> > > > > > > > > > unless we provide our own variation of the common template
> > > > table.
> > > > > > > > > > This variation should cover ordering in JIS X 0208.  I
> > suppose
> > > > > > that it
> > > > > > > > > > should also cover orderings in mailing China, Taiwan,
> > > > HongKong, and
> > > > > > > > > > and many areas.  It might be technically possible to
> > document
> > > > do
> > > > > > so,
> > > > > > > > > > but I do not think that it is practically possible.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > Makoto
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 2016-12-21 6:37 GMT+09:00 Francis Cave <
> > > > francis at franciscave.com>:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi Keld
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your suggestions. We could certainly consider
> > > > passing
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > the DR submitter as a possible approach to implementing
> > the
> > > > sort
> > > > > > > > > method for
> > > > > > > > > > > special characters. Whether or not they would match how
> > > > existing
> > > > > > > > > > > implementers have tackled this issue is for those
> > > > implementers
> > > > > > to say,
> > > > > > > > > > > should they choose to do so.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Francis
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > > From: keld at keldix.com [mailto:keld at keldix.com]
> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: 20 December 2016 19:24
> > > > > > > > > > > To: Francis Cave <francis at franciscave.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > Cc: 'MURATA Makoto' <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>; 'SC 34
> > WG4'
> > > > > > > > > > > <e-SC34-WG4 at ecma-international.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: DR-16-0018: WML: need sort method for
> > special
> > > > > > characters
> > > > > > > > > [for
> > > > > > > > > > > today's call]
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi Francis
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I understand that there are 3 valid values for
> > sortMethod,
> > > > > > Strokes,
> > > > > > > > > PinYin
> > > > > > > > > > > and none.
> > > > > > > > > > > The DR asks for what sorting to use for special
> > characters.
> > > > > > > > > > > I propose to use the one defined by the null tailoring
> > of ISO
> > > > > > 14651.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > As strings can have all UCS charcters in it, the ordering
> > > > just
> > > > > > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > > > > fits that bill nicely as it is defined on all UCS
> > characters.
> > > > > > ISO 14651
> > > > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > > addresses other codesets than UCS, if that is relevant.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > It would make a difference on the first accent, all other
> > > > > > characters
> > > > > > > > > > > considered equivalent, corresponding to the expected
> > > > ordering in
> > > > > > > > > English
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > many other languages.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Maybe one could use extLst to further describe the
> > sorting
> > > > > > method. I
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > advise to use normal internationalisation mechanisms,
> > such as
> > > > > > given by
> > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > locale, as this is a well-known concept, and readily
> > > > available
> > > > > > in most
> > > > > > > > > > > operating systems. This is not a new feature, so there
> > is no
> > > > > > need to
> > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > amendment or revision of the standard, it could be
> > handled
> > > > by a
> > > > > > DR with
> > > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > guidance on how to do it.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Some suggested advice could be: if the extList is empty,
> > > > then the
> > > > > > > > > > > associated
> > > > > > > > > > > locale of the current environment should be used.
> > > > > > > > > > > Hereby I mean the language  setting for the text in
> > > > question, it
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > English part of a Spanish document.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > extLst could also be a name, in that case it should be
> > the
> > > > name
> > > > > > of an
> > > > > > > > > > > implementation-defined locale of the operating system, of
> > > > which
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > sorting
> > > > > > > > > > > spec is to be used.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I don't know if a new DR is needed or this could be part
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > answer
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > DR-16-0018.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Best regards
> > > > > > > > > > > keld
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 04:09:41PM -0000, Francis Cave
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > HI Keld
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > My main concern is whether the sort method, if
> > specified,
> > > > > > affects
> > > > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > > > > > the user sees when they open a document. Suppose that,
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > sake
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > argument, the default sort method of implementation A
> > sorts
> > > > > > accented
> > > > > > > > > > > > text according to the "normal" approach (first accent
> > > > > > difference
> > > > > > > > > > > > determines the order), while implementation B sorts
> > > > accented
> > > > > > text
> > > > > > > > > > > > according to the "French" approach (last accent
> > difference
> > > > > > determines
> > > > > > > > > > > > the order). Suppose a spreadsheet is created by
> > > > implementation
> > > > > > A and
> > > > > > > > > > > > has an auto-filter applied that sorts according to its
> > > > default
> > > > > > sort
> > > > > > > > > > > > method.  If this spreadsheet is subsequently opened by
> > > > > > implementation
> > > > > > > > > > > > B, will it appear the same as if it was re-opened by
> > > > > > implementation
> > > > > > > > > A,
> > > > > > > > > > > > or will implementation B's default sort method be
> > > > automatically
> > > > > > > > > > > > applied? My guess is that generally the latter will be
> > the
> > > > > > case, but
> > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > is obviously implementation-dependent.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that this is a case where implementations
> > must be
> > > > > > free to
> > > > > > > > > > > > choose alternative approaches that aren't fully
> > > > interoperable.
> > > > > > Both
> > > > > > > > > > > > implementations A and B in my example will have had
> > good
> > > > > > reasons for
> > > > > > > > > > > > choosing different sort methods, e.g. based upon market
> > > > > > demands.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > It might be nice if the sort method were spelt out in
> > the
> > > > > > document,
> > > > > > > > > > > > but this would definitely be a new feature. For now, in
> > > > > > response to
> > > > > > > > > DR
> > > > > > > > > > > > 16-0018, I think we should simply ensure that the
> > > > > > specification is
> > > > > > > > > > > > consistent with the schema and is clear about what are
> > > > meant
> > > > > > by the
> > > > > > > > > > > > existing values of ST_SortMethod, i.e. 'none',
> > 'pinYin' and
> > > > > > 'stroke'.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Interestingly, I note that the content model of
> > sortState
> > > > > > includes
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > application-defined extension element extLst, which
> > could
> > > > be
> > > > > > used to
> > > > > > > > > > > > specify the sort state in more detail, using MCE. So,
> > in
> > > > > > theory, it
> > > > > > > > > > > > would be possible to define an extension to OOXML
> > without
> > > > > > having to
> > > > > > > > > > > > amend the base standard. However, I'm not sure that
> > > > there'd be
> > > > > > > > > sufficient
> > > > > > > > > > > demand for this.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Francis
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: keld at keldix.com [mailto:keld at keldix.com]
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: 20 December 2016 09:37
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: Francis Cave <francis at franciscave.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: 'MURATA Makoto' <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>; 'SC 34
> > > > WG4'
> > > > > > > > > > > > <e-SC34-WG4 at ecma-international.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: DR-16-0018: WML: need sort method for
> > special
> > > > > > characters
> > > > > > > > > > > > [for today's call]
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Francis
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I understand that new requirements need an
> > amendment
> > > > or
> > > > > > > > > revision.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > However, this is not what I recommend as the immediate
> > > > > > solution to
> > > > > > > > > > > > sorting special characters. I just propose to use the
> > ISO
> > > > > > > > > 14651/UTS#10
> > > > > > > > > > > > kind of default spec.
> > > > > > > > > > > > And no locale choice.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards
> > > > > > > > > > > > keld
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 05:27:25PM -0000, Francis Cave
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Try again...
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In the first paragraph, for "cannot be done" read
> > "can
> > > > only
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > done".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly a serious finger malfunction...
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Francis
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Francis Cave [mailto:francis at franciscave.com]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: 19 December 2016 16:41
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: keld at keldix.com; 'MURATA Makoto' <
> > > > > > eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: 'SC 34 WG4' <e-SC34-WG4 at ecma-international.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: DR-16-0018: WML: need sort method for
> > > > special
> > > > > > > > > > > > > characters [for today's call]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In the first paragraph or "cannot be done" ready "can
> > > > only be
> > > > > > > > > done".
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Francis
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Francis Cave [mailto:francis at franciscave.com]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: 19 December 2016 16:33
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: keld at keldix.com; 'MURATA Makoto' <
> > > > > > eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: 'SC 34 WG4' <e-SC34-WG4 at ecma-international.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: DR-16-0018: WML: need sort method for
> > > > special
> > > > > > > > > > > > > characters [for today's call]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Keld
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You may or may not be correct in your view that
> > there is
> > > > a
> > > > > > user
> > > > > > > > > > > > > requirement that fields be sortable according to the
> > > > current
> > > > > > > > > locale.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > However, if there is such a user requirement, it
> > isn't
> > > > > > currently
> > > > > > > > > met
> > > > > > > > > > > > > by OOXML or by implementations. Support for
> > specifying
> > > > the
> > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > > > > > > locale as the sort method would involve an extension
> > to
> > > > > > OOXML and
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > such cannot be done by amendment or revision of the
> > > > > > standard, not
> > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Technical Corrigendum, so this is a big deal.
> > Although
> > > > this
> > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a relatively simple change, e.g. by changing
> > > > ST_SortMethod
> > > > > > to allow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > any string (§18.18.73 of ISO/IEC 29500-1:2016), it
> > could
> > > > not
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > made
> > > > > > > > > > > > > mandatory for implementations to support these new
> > values
> > > > > > without
> > > > > > > > > > > > > breaking existing implementations, and if they do not
> > > > > > already do
> > > > > > > > > so,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that suggests that there hasn't be much market
> > pressure
> > > > that
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > persuade them to implement the enhancement.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I note that ODF doesn't appear to have this feature
> > > > either
> > > > > > > > > (although
> > > > > > > > > > > > > it has a similar feature ??? §19.865
> > text:sort-algorithm
> > > > ???
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > sorting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > text,
> > > > > > > > > > > > e.g.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > bibliographies), and in §19.685 table:order there is
> > the
> > > > > > following
> > > > > > > > > > > note:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >     Note: Sorting is locale and
> > implementation-dependent.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It is hard to avoid the conclusion that demand for
> > this
> > > > > > feature is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > very limited, at least in office document
> > applications.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Francis
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: keld at keldix.com [mailto:keld at keldix.com]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: 18 December 2016 20:19
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: MURATA Makoto <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: SC 34 WG4 <e-SC34-WG4 at ecma-international.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: DR-16-0018: WML: need sort method for
> > > > special
> > > > > > > > > > > > > characters [for today's call]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not aware of the reason why this is so.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But anyway, why not then use the 14651 tailorable
> > > > ordering
> > > > > > in its
> > > > > > > > > > > > > template form, which is equivalent to UTS#10 - as the
> > > > > > universal
> > > > > > > > > > > > > sorting in
> > > > > > > > > > > > OOXML?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I would think it was a user requirement that fields
> > are
> > > > > > sortable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > according to the current locale, eg a list of names.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Having the sorting order not being changeable creates
> > > > > > troubles for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > users too.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > best regards
> > > > > > > > > > > > > keld
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 04:48:21AM +0900, MURATA
> > Makoto
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sort order of Excel cannot be changed without
> > > > causing
> > > > > > > > > troubles
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to users.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Makoto
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2016-12-08 3:17 GMT+09:00 Keld Simonsen <
> > > > keld at keldix.com>:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I propose that you use the locale of the current
> > > > > > process, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the implied sorting sequence for special
> > cheracters
> > > > > > there, Or
> > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > least the sorting specified in ISO/IEC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14651
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or the equivalent Unicode specifcation.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > best regards
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > keld Simonsen
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Praying for the victims of the Japan Tohoku
> > earthquake
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Makoto
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Praying for the victims of the Japan Tohoku earthquake
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Makoto
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Praying for the victims of the Japan Tohoku earthquake
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Makoto
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Praying for the victims of the Japan Tohoku earthquake
> > > > >
> > > > > Makoto
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Praying for the victims of the Japan Tohoku earthquake
> > >
> > > Makoto
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Praying for the victims of the Japan Tohoku earthquake
> 
> Makoto