Reconsidering the use of SVG in OOXML

Thu Jan 7 08:42:33 CET 2010

Hi Mohamed and Shawn,

I think we should be very careful when adding a new graphics language to OOXML.

Even though I think you both have valid points – even though they are rather orthogonal to each other – my concern is this:

Switching e.g. graphics language is not a “clear and simple” thing to do, where we could simply add some prose stating that “from now on use SVG for graphics”. A few examples:

The graphics language is used for drawing the canvas (is that the right term?) for the comment in spreadsheet cells. 

The graphics language is used for drawing the “frame” containing an embedded object.

The graphics language is used for drawing the “canvas” for comments in a document in review-cycle

The graphics language is used for defining specific layouts in themes.

…

I would assume there are an enormous amount of similar cases through-out OOXML (and ODF as well, I’d presume)

So even though we of course could make this comprehensive list and create alternatives specified using SVG (assuming that SVG covers all use cases that DrawingML does), we’d find ourselves in a position where we would have dual functionality in a large part of the specification. This is exactly the “mess” we are in with T, where the added functionality from the DIS-process causes potential information loss and added complexity.

As an example, we have two ways of specifying the frame of an embedded object in T – one using DrawingML and one using VML. This is not exactly desirable, if you ask me, and this should be one of the great motivators for moving to S, where only DrawingML is allowed. By switching from DrawingML to SVG you’d re-create the same problems in S.

That being said, creating a profile for “OOXML with MathML” would be much easier (even with the given functionality-loss) and I think that would be very interesting to work with.

Talk to you later today/night,

J

Jesper Lund Stocholm
ciber Danmark A/S

From: Innovimax SARL [mailto:innovimax at gmail.com] 
Sent: 7. januar 2010 08:06
To: Shawn Villaron
Cc: SC 34 WG4
Subject: Re: Reconsidering the use of SVG in OOXML

On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:11 AM, Shawn Villaron <shawnv at microsoft.com> wrote:

Have you evaluated whether or not SVG can adequately represent DrawingML and VML content?  I think that’s likely to be the first question that needs to be addressed regarding this topic.

I don't think we can spot all the problem like you do. There is a whole part of the document using DrawingML or VML that would give the same or better results with SVG (and also better interrop and tooling perspective to users).

I think that even if there is cases where DrawingML and VML could express things that SVG cannot (for which I think they should be explicitly exposed), it doesn't rule out the 99,99% case where it can without any trouble.

	Furthermore, just to be clear, SVG can be used in OOXML.  I believe that that was the intent of the contentPart change from the BRM …

It is just a "can". My understanding is that there is no support from existing tools today since it is just an option (like using CGM or MyFancyVectorialFormat) without any guarantee of interrop or being handled by the tools.

Furthermore, I fully disrespect with the fact that contentPart is an option since DrawingML and VML have deeper integration into the specification that SVG should also have

To be clear, what I'm asking for, is a work item on providing an OOXML with SVG (without Drawing nor VML) profile in order to express clearly how users and implementers could achieve interrop on that point

I think that the same should be thought about OOXML with MathML (without OMML) profile

We discussed last time about providing broader visibility to our work and give people bigger interest : I think that's one face of the coin, i.e. providing integration with already existing standards

Mohamed

	From: Innovimax SARL [mailto:innovimax at gmail.com] 
	Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 2:49 PM
	To: SC 34 WG4
	Subject: Reconsidering the use of SVG in OOXML

	Dear,

	Since Microsoft is now officially joining the W3C SVG WG [1], we should reconsider using SVG in OOXML instead of DrawingML and (even worse) VML

	Mohamed

	[1] http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/01/05/microsoft-joins-w3c-svg-working-group.aspx

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	Innovimax SARL
	Consulting, Training & XML Development
	9, impasse des Orteaux
	75020 Paris
	Tel : +33 9 52 475787
	Fax : +33 1 4356 1746
	http://www.innovimax.fr
	RCS Paris 488.018.631
	SARL au capital de 10.000 €

-- 
Innovimax SARL
Consulting, Training & XML Development
9, impasse des Orteaux
75020 Paris
Tel : +33 9 52 475787
Fax : +33 1 4356 1746
http://www.innovimax.fr
RCS Paris 488.018.631
SARL au capital de 10.000 €

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