DR-16-0018: WML: need sort method for special characters [for today's call]

[keld at keldix.com]

Hi Francis

Yes, I understand that new requirements need an amendment or revision.

However, this is not what I recommend as the immediate solution to sorting
special characters. I just propose to use the ISO 14651/UTS#10 kind of default spec.
And no locale choice. 

Best regards
keld

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 05:27:25PM -0000, Francis Cave wrote:
> 
> Try again...
> 
> In the first paragraph, for "cannot be done" read "can only be done".
> Clearly a serious finger malfunction...
> 
> Francis
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francis Cave [mailto:francis at franciscave.com] 
> Sent: 19 December 2016 16:41
> To: keld at keldix.com; 'MURATA Makoto' <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>
> Cc: 'SC 34 WG4' <e-SC34-WG4 at ecma-international.org>
> Subject: RE: DR-16-0018: WML: need sort method for special characters [for
> today's call]
> 
> 
> In the first paragraph or "cannot be done" ready "can only be done". Sorry!
> 
> Francis
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francis Cave [mailto:francis at franciscave.com]
> Sent: 19 December 2016 16:33
> To: keld at keldix.com; 'MURATA Makoto' <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>
> Cc: 'SC 34 WG4' <e-SC34-WG4 at ecma-international.org>
> Subject: RE: DR-16-0018: WML: need sort method for special characters [for
> today's call]
> 
> 
> Keld
> 
> You may or may not be correct in your view that there is a user requirement
> that fields be sortable according to the current locale. However, if there
> is such a user requirement, it isn't currently met by OOXML or by
> implementations. Support for specifying the current locale as the sort
> method would involve an extension to OOXML and as such cannot be done by
> amendment or revision of the standard, not by Technical Corrigendum, so this
> is a big deal. Although this might be a relatively simple change, e.g. by
> changing ST_SortMethod to allow any string (§18.18.73 of
> ISO/IEC 29500-1:2016), it could not be made mandatory for implementations to
> support these new values without breaking existing implementations, and if
> they do not already do so, that suggests that there hasn't be much market
> pressure that would persuade them to implement the enhancement.
> 
> I note that ODF doesn't appear to have this feature either (although it has
> a similar feature – §19.865 text:sort-algorithm – for sorting text, e.g.
> bibliographies), and in §19.685 table:order there is the following note:
> 
> 	Note: Sorting is locale and implementation-dependent.
> 
> It is hard to avoid the conclusion that demand for this feature is very
> limited, at least in office document applications.
> 
> Francis
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: keld at keldix.com [mailto:keld at keldix.com]
> Sent: 18 December 2016 20:19
> To: MURATA Makoto <eb2m-mrt at asahi-net.or.jp>
> Cc: SC 34 WG4 <e-SC34-WG4 at ecma-international.org>
> Subject: Re: DR-16-0018: WML: need sort method for special characters [for
> today's call]
> 
> I am not aware of the reason why this is so.
> 
> But anyway, why not then use the 14651 tailorable ordering in its template
> form, which is equivalent to UTS#10 - as the universal sorting in OOXML?
> 
> I would think it was a user requirement that fields are sortable according
> to the current locale, eg a list of names. 
> 
> Having the sorting order not being changeable creates troubles for users
> too.
> 
> best regards
> keld
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 04:48:21AM +0900, MURATA Makoto wrote:
> > The sort order of Excel cannot be changed without causing troubles to 
> > users.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Makoto
> > 
> > 2016-12-08 3:17 GMT+09:00 Keld Simonsen <keld at keldix.com>:
> > 
> > > I propose that you use the locale of the current process, and the 
> > > implied sorting sequence for special cheracters there, Or at least 
> > > the sorting specified in ISO/IEC
> > > 14651
> > > or the equivalent Unicode specifcation.
> > >
> > > best regards
> > > keld Simonsen
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > Praying for the victims of the Japan Tohoku earthquake
> > 
> > Makoto
> 
> 
> 
> 
>